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#1 2006-06-01 02:16 pm

bunny
Executive Director
From: Wallingford
Registered: 2006-02-18
Posts: 1157
Website

Open Rules Thread....

Got a rules question?   Post it here.

There are more than a few UPA Certified Observers in the area.  I think that there's even one or two folks on the Standing Rules Committee, too.

Read the rules here...
http://www.upa.org/ultimate/rules


William Bartram
Executive Director, DiscNW

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#2 2006-06-01 10:32 pm

manzell
Greatest
From: PDXOR
Registered: 2006-02-16
Posts: 310
Website

Re: Open Rules Thread....

I think we should change the rules.

Games should be played under a timecap that makes more than 20 total points in a game improbable, making 15 point wins improbable... maybe that way the number of goals scored by the winning team would be more meaningful. also, it might help for scheduling reasons.

like... 60 minutes total.  that would probably mean more scheduled doubleheaders and more games in a season.


"This is why I'm hot."

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#3 2006-06-02 04:01 pm

Edward
Push Pass
Registered: 2006-05-11
Posts: 71

Re: Open Rules Thread....

manzell :

I think we should change the rules.

Games should be played under a timecap that makes more than 20 total points in a game improbable, making 15 point wins improbable... maybe that way the number of goals scored by the winning team would be more meaningful. also, it might help for scheduling reasons.

like... 60 minutes total.  that would probably mean more scheduled doubleheaders and more games in a season.

Like in the Middle School League?

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#4 2006-06-03 05:22 am

Woodiepaddler
Air Bounce
From: Tacoma
Registered: 2006-05-10
Posts: 237

Re: Open Rules Thread....

Like it takes me 60 minutes just to get warmed up!

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#5 2006-06-03 10:19 am

rilez
High Release
Registered: 2006-05-15
Posts: 35

Re: Open Rules Thread....

I have a rules question. If the catcher gets stripped, can the other team contest the call have it go back to the thrower?

Thanks



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#6 2006-06-03 08:06 pm

Edward
Push Pass
Registered: 2006-05-11
Posts: 71

Re: Open Rules Thread....

rilez :

I have a rules question. If the catcher gets stripped, can the other team contest the call have it go back to the thrower?

Thanks

Yes, either the receiver or the defender can contest a strip.  Are you asking if a teammate can contest a strip? 

Rule XVI.I.9 describes a strip.

See rules XIV.C.5.a & XIV.C.5.b for info about what happens to the stall count.

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#7 2006-06-04 10:10 am

jcw
Air Bounce
From: Burien
Registered: 2006-05-11
Posts: 156

Re: Open Rules Thread....

manzell :

I think we should change the rules.

Games should be played under a timecap that makes more than 20 total points in a game improbable, making 15 point wins improbable... maybe that way the number of goals scored by the winning team would be more meaningful. also, it might help for scheduling reasons.

like... 60 minutes total.  that would probably mean more scheduled doubleheaders and more games in a season.

Games to 20 are already improbable.  Winning at 15 is highly probable, though I don't see the difficulty that presents.  The currently existing time cap and subsequent hard cap allow tournaments to be run according to a schedule.

I always thought it odd that ultimate was played to a score limit.  What is this? Ping pong?  Volleyball?  At least it's not like a baseball game which could possibly be played until all the players died.

The thing I like about the end of game method that ultimate chooses is that it makes the score the important consideration rather than the clock.  If football were played to a score limit it would change the nature of the game.  The earlier parts of the game would be more likely to see more exciting play.  As it is now, most coaches run their game conservatively and only really bust out their tricky and exciting plays if the need arises.  Coaches in basketball have their players foul like crazy at the end of the game to save the clock.  Coaches in hockey have teams with the lead basically play for puck control and essentially run the clock out.  That's because coaches in these sports have to manage the clock.

An ultimate team with the lead still has to fill out it's score cap.  Yes they will be more conserative, but they can't just play keep away.  I think score limits keep the game moving from beginning to end.

We need a rules forum. A rules thread is hard to track response and the topic of a specific discussion.

Later,
Jason

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#8 2006-06-27 05:48 pm

bunny
Executive Director
From: Wallingford
Registered: 2006-02-18
Posts: 1157
Website

Re: Open Rules Thread....

jcw :

We need a rules forum. A rules thread is hard to track response and the topic of a specific discussion.

I would like a forum, too.... I'll make one when we get to 50 replies on this thread.

C'mon, folks.  Nobody has had a rules question come up in summer league yet?

-b


William Bartram
Executive Director, DiscNW

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#9 2006-06-29 12:14 pm

appleshampoo
Air Bounce
Registered: 2006-05-10
Posts: 141

Re: Open Rules Thread....

When you change markers after a timeout, the stall count resets to 0, right? This came up in a summer league game and no one else seemed to have heard of the rule except me.  Now looking at the rules, I don't see anything about this specific situation under the time out section, but XIV.C.4 seems to cover it:

If the defense switches markers, the new marker must re-initiate the stall count. A marker leaving the three-meter radius and returning is considered a new marker.


Also known as Walnut, or Philbrook

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#10 2006-06-29 12:18 pm

bunny
Executive Director
From: Wallingford
Registered: 2006-02-18
Posts: 1157
Website

Re: Open Rules Thread....

appleshampoo :

When you change markers after a timeout, the stall count resets to 0, right? This came up in a summer league game and no one else seemed to have heard of the rule except me.  Now looking at the rules, I don't see anything about this specific situation under the time out section, but XIV.C.4 seems to cover it:

If the defense switches markers, the new marker must re-initiate the stall count. A marker leaving the three-meter radius and returning is considered a new marker.

Yes, anytime there is a new marker the count is reset to 0. Rule XIV.C. is the right rule.  Just because the marker is switched after a time out doesn't change the fact that the defense switched markers.

Strategically this is why you usually want the same marker to be on the disc after a time out.  However, if the count is really low you might want to switch the marker anyway in order to take advantage of a mismatch or to set up zone or whatever.


William Bartram
Executive Director, DiscNW

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#11 2006-09-20 09:10 am

Edward
Push Pass
Registered: 2006-05-11
Posts: 71

Re: Open Rules Thread....

Check out the draft of the new 11th Edition Rules...
http://www.upa.org/ultimate/rules/11th_draft

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#12 2006-09-20 08:16 pm

manzell
Greatest
From: PDXOR
Registered: 2006-02-16
Posts: 310
Website

Re: Open Rules Thread....

appleshampoo :

When you change markers after a timeout, the stall count resets to 0, right? This came up in a summer league game and no one else seemed to have heard of the rule except me.  Now looking at the rules, I don't see anything about this specific situation under the time out section, but XIV.C.4 seems to cover it:

If the defense switches markers, the new marker must re-initiate the stall count. A marker leaving the three-meter radius and returning is considered a new marker.

Not anymore!


"This is why I'm hot."

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#13 2006-09-20 10:40 pm

jcw
Air Bounce
From: Burien
Registered: 2006-05-11
Posts: 156

Re: Open Rules Thread....

I don't think this works in 11th edition.  When the disc is checked, the count starts.  Under this proposal, you check the disc and then start walking to where you put the disc into play.  That doesn't make sense.

A disc is always checked in at the site of the violation. Players must then carry the disc to the appropriate location, if different from the site of the violation, to put the disc in play. For example, if there’s an uncontested receiving foul in the endzone, the disc is checked in at the spot of the foul, after which everyone is free to move and the receiver can carry the disc to the endzone line and put it in play.

Later,
Jason

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#14 2006-09-20 10:52 pm

jcw
Air Bounce
From: Burien
Registered: 2006-05-11
Posts: 156

Re: Open Rules Thread....

Caps are renamed for clarity:
“Point cap”: maximum score limit imposed before the event (e.g. “game to 15, point cap
at 17”)

I think the example given here is bad.  It establishes a notion that ALL games are capped at plus two points.  If I game runs into octuple overtime but stays on schedule timewise, the game should be played until a two point differential is achieved.  (ie win by 2)

Later,
Jason

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#15 2006-09-21 09:32 am

wondergirl
High Release
From: West Seattle
Registered: 2006-05-17
Posts: 22

Re: Open Rules Thread....

what about this rule (from 11th edition)? Isn't it your responsiblity to know when you're in the endzone?

-sd

**************************************

if an offensive player who has just caught a legal pass in their endzone of attack, and then throws an incomplete pass (not realizing they were in their endzone), a defensive player can overrule the turnover and award the goal.

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#16 2006-09-21 05:24 pm

manzell
Greatest
From: PDXOR
Registered: 2006-02-16
Posts: 310
Website

Re: Open Rules Thread....

jcw :

Caps are renamed for clarity:
“Point cap”: maximum score limit imposed before the event (e.g. “game to 15, point cap
at 17”)

I think the example given here is bad.  It establishes a notion that ALL games are capped at plus two points.  If I game runs into octuple overtime but stays on schedule timewise, the game should be played until a two point differential is achieved.  (ie win by 2)

Later,
Jason

Point Cap i think isn't just the same old soft cap just renamed for clarity... its the maximum score limited imposed before the event. It doesn't require a point cap be established beforehand.

Of course, the real issue is getting people to use the new terms.


"This is why I'm hot."

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#17 2006-09-22 09:35 am

Joseph
Push Pass
From: Green Lake
Registered: 2006-05-11
Posts: 71

Re: Open Rules Thread....

There are NO substantive changes to the cap rules, only renaming.  This was required because nearly everyone and even most tournament directors call the caps by the wrong names.

The biggest mistake:
In 10th edition a "Time Cap" was: "Maximum score limit imposed during a game once a predetermined time of play has elapsed" (e.g. after 1.5 hours, add 2 to the highest score). ---I've only ever heard this called a "Soft Cap", and that was never going to change in people's heads, so they've made the only reasonable fix and made the mistake official, changing "Time Cap" to "Soft Time Cap".

The same people and tournament directors didn't realize that a "Soft Cap" was really: "Maximum score limit imposed before the event (e.g. “game to 15, point cap at 17”)."  ---This has been renamed to "Point Cap", which is a much more accurate name.

Changes from 10th edition to 11th edition:
"Soft Cap" becomes "Point Cap". <-- It's a cap on the number of points anyway
"Time Cap" becomes "Soft Time Cap". <-- Everyone already called this a soft cap
"Hard Cap" becomes "Hard Time Cap".

joseph

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#18 2006-09-22 09:21 pm

AndyO
Scoober
Registered: 2006-05-22
Posts: 87

Re: Open Rules Thread....

wondergirl :

what about this rule (from 11th edition)? Isn't it your responsiblity to know when you're in the endzone?

-sd

**************************************

if an offensive player who has just caught a legal pass in their endzone of attack, and then throws an incomplete pass (not realizing they were in their endzone), a defensive player can overrule the turnover and award the goal.

I believe that yes, it is still the receiver's resposibility to know if they are in the end zone.  This rule simply allows the defensive team to exhibit good sportsmanship (spirit?)and award the goal regardless of the follow-on action.  I think it dovetails nicely with the 'play fair' and 'do-over on contested call' ethos that makes our sport unique.


used to be fast, now I'm just old

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#19 2006-09-26 11:09 am

Mortakai
Backhand
Registered: 2006-09-20
Posts: 5

Re: Open Rules Thread....

wondergirl :

what about this rule (from 11th edition)? Isn't it your responsiblity to know when you're in the endzone?

-sd

**************************************

if an offensive player who has just caught a legal pass in their endzone of attack, and then throws an incomplete pass (not realizing they were in their endzone), a defensive player can overrule the turnover and award the goal.

AndyO :

I believe that yes, it is still the receiver's resposibility to know if they are in the end zone.  This rule simply allows the defensive team to exhibit good sportsmanship (spirit?)and award the goal regardless of the follow-on action.  I think it dovetails nicely with the 'play fair' and 'do-over on contested call' ethos that makes our sport unique.

We (the SRC) were addressing recent r.s.d comments that "a goal is a goal regardless of what happens". It's likely to come into play in two common situations. (1) new(er) players that don't have a lot of field awareness yet, so sure, let'em have the point, and (2) the receiver is many-times one of the lowest on the list who knows if they're actually in or not on a close-to-the-line catch (i.e., not necessarily their responsibility for the call), and an accompanying defender who has best perspective may not call "not-in" as quickly as they *should*, which places the receiver/thrower at a disadvantage in getting the next quick throw off to another open receiver if necessary because they're not-in, just because the defense delayed their in/not-in call. This allows that next pass to happen right away, and gives the defense the opportunity to say "actually, you were already in, it's a point (... sorry I didn't call it faster)".

There's a lot of discussion going on over on the 11th Edition message board. It's covering this plus other 'hot' issues. C'mon over and check it out. http://groups.google.com/group/UPA_11th_edition_rules


Defense: Hey, I just fouled you, you really should call that.
Offense: Really? ... okay... FOUL!
Defense: CONTEST!!!

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#20 2006-09-26 07:33 pm

jcw
Air Bounce
From: Burien
Registered: 2006-05-11
Posts: 156

Re: Open Rules Thread....

Joe's right.  It's just a renaming of the caps.  Manzell basically quoted the 10th edition definition of soft cap.

Later,
Jason

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